Roberts Liardon

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I had a dark time about ten-twelve years ago. I went through a tough personal thing and Oral Roberts, the board and my family came together to help me to overcome it. I took time to make sure I was restored, to make sure I was ready to go.

Roberts Liardon, world-known minister and author of more than 50 books

World-known minister and author of more than 50 books, including "I Saw Heaven" and “God's Generals”, Roberts Liardon gave an exclusive interview to Christian Telegraph. The full text of the interview is below:

Why did you come particularly to Kiev?

Well I came here because I want to come back and visit the countries that I’ve been to when I was what fifteen years younger. I turned forty five as of February this year. I think I came to Ukraine when I was in my late twenties, early thirties. So I’ve not been back to some of these countries, so I prayed to God to open the right door and then Pastor sent me an invitation and I said “yes.” That’s why I am here.

So is it any different from the last time you were here and how is it different?

Oh yes, very different. During my first session today I was making fun of when I first came you didn’t have nice buildings, now you’ve got beautiful screens and nice suits and everything – it’s a whole new thing naturally. And spiritually you are healthier. In those days you were fighting for the right to exist but now it’s a different type of battle or a different type of focus, which is good. Of course I have been here only for two days, so I can’t say I’ve seen it all.

Do you plan to come back some time later?

I would love to come back to Ukraine and to the Eastern bloc countries. I am going to be in Siberia in November, so I am going to go over there and freeze. I am doing a conference there called Fire in the Snow. This is twentieth anniversary so I am going to do that. I live in London now for this season. I made a commitment to live in this part of the world for another three years. Then I will go back to America and build my next church. So while I am in Europe it’s easier for me to get here. It’s cheaper; it’s easier than to fly here all the way from America, so I would love to do all I can. While I am here – I am here to work, so I’m doing small churches, big churches or anything so when people call me I come, I am here to work, not on a holiday.

Many know you thanks to your book “I Saw Heaven”

Yes, it’s twenty five years old this year…

Wow. Could you tell us some more details about it? What was it like? Do you still remember it as clear?

Oh, that type of experience was very special. All my visions that I had – about three or four major visions that were real to me just as you are. So the heaven thing is real. I don’t talk about it much not because I am ashamed about it but because I preach about so many other things. But the thing that I remember most about heaven is always the golden street, the curbs and the flowers next to the curve that hummed. It’s not like Walt Disney with the little mouth, but every few minutes in heaven there comes a wave of life or energy or however you want to describe it and when this energy or life goes through the flower it makes a little hum sound so as a little boy I remembered little hum that came from the flowers. Now, I was eight and a half, I was a little boy, so that’s how I remember heaven, I don’t remember it in any other way. And then Jesus stands about five foot eleven, six foot tall and he has muscles – I remember His biceps as a little boy.

Does this experience influence your life now?

It helps me to keep going sometimes. I’ve been in the ministry for thirty years now, so I feel all good, bad and uglys, so that experience keeps me going because that’s when Jesus became my friend. During that experience to me He became my friend and that’s what keeps me going because I love Jesus and I want to do my best for Him.

Wow. What was the reason for you to begin to study biographies of God’s Generals?

Well, that was the second time I saw Jesus. The heaven was the first and the second was the story of generals. He walked to the front room while I was sitting watching television. I was not praying, I was not being spiritual, I was 12 and a half watching my favorite TV shows. And He walked through the front door without opening it. He walked toward me and I felt as if the whole room moved back, I could hear the TV like in the distance a little bit, it was still there but it was far out. And He said: “Study the lives of my generals – know why they succeed, why some failed. This will be your training, be faithful and you’ll help save gifts and help birth gifts and a few other things but He gave me commission to study the lives of these generals to tell the stories. And by telling the stories you inspire people and you can learn applicate the rights principles in the ministry, the principles that we can look at today. So that’s why I did it. My librarian tells me that I’ve read 14 thousand books. Now I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s her count. I always read. I still do it today. If you go to my hotel room you would find notes and books I travel with that I read and I find joy in it. When I was a little boy I thought: Who wants to study preachers? It was always boring to me. But once I began to read the stories and getting into it would come alive. Like I told today – what I told today is only that much. I can talk on one person for full day and exhaust you, that’s how well I know them. But when you are doing a conference you just hit the high points. Hopefully I’ve inspired someone and they would say: I like that guy. And would want to study it themselves. That’s what I’m hoping for. And that’s what my books are about. My books are a smaller ambition of their lives. To write about Charles Finney or Sister MacPherson you need a book as big but I condense it enough to give you the meet, the fun, the challenge, the victory or whatever and hopefully you can do it yourself.”

And how did you chose those generals, did God tell you to study this person and that person or you chose them by yourself?

What I did was: I picked one that I knew their name first. And when I would read their story, when I would see other people’s names in their books or their references to someone else, because often preachers talk about others and I began my journey. I would talk to old people – my favorite people are old people because they know many people and like to talk about it. My grandmother being a greater influence in my life than my mother, she would talk about Aimee [MacPherson], she would talk about Oral Roberts and I grew up around Oral Roberts, so I would write their names down and I would start listening and ask them. I would ask Oral who he liked, who inspired him and would trace those people, that’s how I did it. A general to me is number one: whose personal devotion stands up in a way that inspires you and me to want to be more dedicated to God. When you look at a general, it would be the second definition: it would be a person whose walk with God and their ministry has affected thousands of people that even after their death you can still see their affect on a nation or on the world. That’s how I would define it. So when I pick these different ones, it’s those whose personal devotion and their affect can be seen on a nation or over a whole continent. That’s how I pick them. I am not saying that others are not valuable but I can’t write about everybody.

They are just majors yet…

Yeah, they are just majors and captains but they are important.

Today you told how people used to treasure their salvation because it was so hard for them to receive it due to Calvinist teaching. Nowadays people seem to not treasure their salvation anymore. Is it possible to keep holiness in the church? How can we keep holiness in the church?

When you look at holiness in the church – we are holy because Christ makes us holy, so that settles that issue. But how we live is the response to that holiness in us. People have to makes choices to cooperate with that or walk through their personal issues. So holiness in the church is never going to be where everybody is perfect. There could be a guy who was saved last night and still doing drugs but he is working through the process. There could be a lady who was saved for ten years and all of a sudden a personal issue has erupted a memory that caused her to have a problem. We have to be willing to embrace people as they walk through their stuff. As long as they are walking through it, as long as they are trying be with them. I think in that way we need to keep the love of God and keep preaching, don’t give up. You are going to be OK, I know it hurts but keep moving. That’s the way I present holiness in the church. If you are trying to make everybody to not make a mistake or not to do something that’s not possible. Everybody is different, we are all growing, and we are on different levels. As long as we are growing, as long as we are reaching, I think it’s good.

What advice would you give to people who are struggling, who are living in sin but they want to live a holy life?

I would say: don’t beat yourself up. Let Jesus help you. Just be real with God. Just say: I’m trying and this is tough. My flesh is bigger, my soul is hurting and I can’t resist but I am trying, Jesus. And do something, even if it’s a little thing, every day to get stronger or to go in the right direction. And if you fall back a couple steps, we all, as grandma would say: fall forwards when you wake up you know which way to go. So don’t let setbacks cause you to walk away. Cause that’s what happens when I get tired of it. Sometimes because we don’t have the compassion to keep encouraging: come on, come on. You know for some people it takes longer to overcome something than for others. So as long as we are loving them, as long as we are trying, as long as we are reaching, that would be good. And don’t be mean to yourself. God likes you. Hopefully we all like you and just keep working, even if it’s a little step, do it every day and you’ll get there. That’s what I would say.

Today there are so many translations and adaptations of the Bible: modern translation, NIV, translation adopted for a particular age or culture. What do you think about it? Are all the messages of the Bible still relevant for today or some of them should be changed?

Number one I think that these different translations and paraphrases are good for study but that’s why we always go back to the original language. I think we have to go back. That’s why we have Greek and Hebrew and all of our Internet study stuff. It is much easier to do through the Internet, you don’t have to carry big books around. I would say as a minister that you can read all of them but make sure you include going back to the original language whether it’s Hebrew or Greek. See what it means and do word studies that you are closer if not accurate to what was originally said. Even though the time passes and how we articulate those principles changes but you know what was said. That’s what I do. Even though I may not always say that but I go back and study to make sure what that phrase means, this verse or that context. That’s how I do it. So I think it is good because not everybody is going to Greek and Hebrew but we as preachers need to make sure we do that, so we know that we are saying it accurately. I think all the principles in the Scriptures are relevant. It’s how we want to present them, how we want to… I’m going to use the word “adapt” them to our way of living. Because the way Jesus lived and the way we live are two different cultures but the principles – how we treat one another, how we live, how we relate are still the same. The Prodigal son still works. The story of talents is still true. God gave you a talent, if you don’t use it, why not? Those things are still relevant, so we have to take those stories and bring them into today’s context, when people can connect the words of ancient writer’s principle with today. Well, at least they are relevant. Especially the New Testament.

There are talks among Christians that there was some kind of dark period in your life…

True, true…

What helped you to go through all of this and do you use this experience to serve other people now?

Yeah, I had a dark time about ten-twelve years ago. I went through a tough personal thing and Oral Roberts, the board and my family came together to help me to overcome it. I took time to make sure I was restored, to make sure I was ready to go. They were supporting me and made sure I can do it. It makes me aware of certain things, more aware of my humanity, it makes me kinder to other folks that go through stuff. When you go through something then all of a sudden you become like: I know how that feels. There were certain things I couldn’t relate to before and I know you don’t have to go through trouble to relate but it does help. Now when somebody walks up to me in a prayer line and they say this and they say that, my attitude is totally different. So yeah, it does help and hopefully people can look at me and say: if he can make it, I can make it. If he could through, I can too. And then history – use my generals thing – everybody you read about should not have made something, they all went through something. According to tradition, according to social and cultural taboos they shouldn’t have made it but why they made it? Because they didn’t give up. And so whatever you are going through – keep going. Go THROUGH it, don’t stop in the middle of it. So yeah, it’s true and I am happy I am now on the other side of it. Talking about it doesn’t bother me, so it’s OK.

So what helped you to go through this – were there some specific things?

My family and my covering prayed with me, walked with me, giving more time to focus on me and taking my attention off of the ministry for a season to focus on me, to get me stronger, to get me back on my feet, the way it should be in my thinking. So that was it. And also learning just to rest and to let the Word heal and let the strength in you to become alive and not be worried about the ministry. The gifts and the cause without repentance are always there. So I had to take my mind off of that and to focus on me, so it could all work together again. So I did that. And my covering was a great blessing – praying with me, walking with me and helping me in those things. It was tough but it was good.

We know that family always meant a big deal to you. What are some specific things that you really appreciate in the family?

The family always tells you the truth. Family are one of those folks that know you, they know you naturally, they know emotionally, and hopefully they know you spiritually. So their support, their confrontation is more real than those people’s because they are not bothered by your fame or your success because: hey, I played with you. I like that part about family, they are still part of my ministry, they are part of my life. My grandmother passed away in 2004. My mother still runs my office, my sister and brother in law are part of my life and my ministry. We get together and do friendly things and I enjoy that. I make more time for them. As you get older you’ve got to make time. I’ve learned that the harder way, because you get so busy working for Jesus you forget to live, to relate and to enjoy the people around you.

Do you plan to have your own family sometime later?

If I can slow down enough, yes, it would be nice, you know. We’ll see what happens. I don’t always talk about what goes on in my private life. I might show one day with the missis and it will be ok. Because everybody likes to talk I keep that quite because public has all kinds of views.

That’s right it does. What are the main goals in your life and in your ministry?

Right now I’m going to finish my commitment in Great Britain. When I am done I will return to the States and build my next church. I am developing TV and radio ministry again and I am still writing my next book. One is coming out in the fall, it is called “Good God vs. Bad God.” What did the image of God manage to come from, so I am going through Scripture and church history. So I am doing those things. And we are still working around the world – in Asia, Africa and in Europe. We got Bible schools and many other things that we are doing.

And what specific ministry are you doing in Great Britain?

Right now I am the principle of the Kensington Temple’s Bible school, dean as we call it in the States. First I thought I was going to Asia. I wanted to go to Asia, because I got three schools there. So I was on my way to go to Asia. I was going to live in Manila, I already picked my apartment, the car was on the buy to be there for five years. Most of the world is in Asia. I came over to Great Britain to preach as I do it every year. And the Lord said; “you are going to be the dean of this schools.” And I said: “No, I’m going to Asia.” Because I was already focused on my Asia world and I was telling people publicly: “I’m going to Asia for awhile.” I told my partners. And then it changed. The Lord said: “I need you here.” So I ended up in England. So I am focusing on that. Right now Europe and Great Britain is the number one mission field of the world. In my mind I had to have redefinition of what the mission field is. Two things I thought the mission field was: the need for Jesus and the social and humanitarian need. Well, humanitarian need is not making the mission field. Africa is no longer the number one mission field. It’s still a social need. But they got huge churches in Africa, so there is revival in Africa. Not the same in Europe. So there is need for this in Europe and Great Britain. I still fly to Asia but I live here. I go back and forth. It’s how I view it. I am here for a season. And I am doing well.

So as I understand the main goal is evangelism…

Yes, evangelism, strengthening leaders and strengthening church to go to the next level. We were in great prayer here in Europe in 90s and we were part of it. But we need to get the new fire to go to the next level. So that’s kind of what I’m focusing on.

As for your new church in the United States – do you already know where it’s going to be?

It’s going to be on the East Coast, that’s all I know. I could give you the name of the city, but I can’t see the Lord told me yet, I don’t know. I just know it will be the East Coast. I did the West Coast for twenty years, I’ll do the one on the East Coast. I hope it’s in Florida, because it’s sunny and nice but I can’t say.

Which of your ministry do you contribute most of your time to? Is it the one in England or does it depend on the period of your life?

Right now my strong focus is here in Europe. I am living here so my focus is here, I can do a lot more here. The other parts are secondary. What I am doing here is important.

As far as I know your partners help you to run your ministry financially and spiritually.

Yes, people pray for me and support me financially. So my European partners and American partners and all over the world they do this.

And how do you find your partners?

They can go on my site. They can become partners through my American office or European office.

What three things would you say/ wish to all Christians?

Live strong and brave and not be scared of anything. Pray out loud and aggressively and go forward. You only live once, so whatever you do, do it with all of your heart. Don’t be afraid of persecution. When you obey the Lord you will get the reaction. I’ve lived most of my life by being kissed or being beat – don’t be afraid of it.

What three things would you say to be aware of?

Be aware of the opinions of men that might make you sour or make you bitter. Be aware that there is still the devil who works against you. He may go quite for a moment but he has not left. He may be watching and trying to find a snare for you. Be aware that the devil is always looking for a moment to devour you. Enjoy your earth life. Enjoy what you do. Have fun with it. Smile. Enjoy it. Don’t let the joy go away.